Episode 27

full
Published on:

30th May 2022

27. Bored Apes Stolen, A16z Crypto Fund, Interoperability, Metaverse Elves, NFL Blockchain Game

In this episode, we discuss Seth Green's Bored Ape NFT being stolen, Andreessen Horowitz's $4.5 billion crypto fund, a cross-chain event between Million on Mars and Sunflower Land, an NFL blockchain game, Helpshift's plan for free metaverse customer support, metaverse elves, and so much more!

Episode 27 Keywords: Seth Green, BoredApe, NFT, Andreessen Horowitz, crypto fund, cross-chain events, Million on Mars, Sunflower Land, NFL, blockchain, Helpshift, free, metaverse customer support, elves

Transcript
Unknown:

Welcome to the metaphysics podcast. The

Unknown:

Metaverse and web three are bringing about the biggest

Unknown:

revolution since the internet itself. With your hosts Paul the

Unknown:

prophet Dawalibi And Jeff the juice Cohen. We will be bringing

Unknown:

you the latest Metaverse, business news and insight into

Unknown:

what it all means. The meta business podcast starts now.

Paul Dawalibi:

From the boardroom to the metaverse. This

Paul Dawalibi:

is the metal business podcast. I am Paul the profit Web. I'm

Paul Dawalibi:

joined today by my friend and co host, Jeff, the juice Cohen. For

Paul Dawalibi:

those of you who are new here, welcome to the official podcast

Paul Dawalibi:

of the metaverse. What we do is we cover the most pressing,

Paul Dawalibi:

Metaverse, stories and news of the week. But we look at all of

Paul Dawalibi:

it through a business and C suite lens, we dissect, we

Paul Dawalibi:

analyze the business implications of everything

Paul Dawalibi:

happening in this exciting industry. For our regular

Paul Dawalibi:

listeners. Thank you guys for tuning in every week. If you

Paul Dawalibi:

haven't already, go leave a review on the podcast, share it

Paul Dawalibi:

with a friend if you do those two things, we will love you

Paul Dawalibi:

forever. This is how we continue to grow. Make sure you share it

Paul Dawalibi:

make sure you leave a review on whatever podcast platform you

Paul Dawalibi:

you get us on and hit subscribe or like turn on whatever alerts

Paul Dawalibi:

or notifications there are so you make sure you get every new

Paul Dawalibi:

episode right when it comes out. Jeff, how you doing this week?

Jeff Cohen:

I'm good. I'm feel like I'm ready to go. You know,

Jeff Cohen:

it's whenever we record after the live stream. I always feel

Jeff Cohen:

like you know, I've got the kinks out like I'm kind of ready

Jeff Cohen:

to. It's almost like yeah, like when you go off you take the

Jeff Cohen:

first three or four holes, like get your swing and then you're

Jeff Cohen:

really hitting your stride by the by the middle. So that's how

Jeff Cohen:

I feel now. I feel like I'm ready to go. I'm like loose.

Jeff Cohen:

It's gonna be we're gonna we're gonna spit some fire on this

Jeff Cohen:

episode. I

Paul Dawalibi:

think I am ready for some like classic juice hot

Paul Dawalibi:

takes here. Okay, so let's let's kick this off. Guys. We'll start

Paul Dawalibi:

with a story here. As always, we try and start with a story

Paul Dawalibi:

that's a little bit fun or a little bit lighthearted.

Paul Dawalibi:

Although enough I call theft fun here. But it is an interesting

Paul Dawalibi:

story. And the headline is someone stole Seth Green's board

Paul Dawalibi:

ape, which was supposed to start in his new show. The sub

Paul Dawalibi:

headline says the actor has been pleading on Twitter with dark

Paul Dawalibi:

wings ad for who bought his ape from a scammer to return it. So

Paul Dawalibi:

this is actor producer Seth Green. He had NF T's that were

Paul Dawalibi:

robbed from him as supposedly after succumbing to a phishing

Paul Dawalibi:

scam. And what was interesting about this robbery is he had

Paul Dawalibi:

bought a board ape or a board ape and a few other NF T's. And

Paul Dawalibi:

he was using the he had been developing for the last I think

Paul Dawalibi:

year it said an animated series featuring the board eight that

Paul Dawalibi:

he had bought. Now, now that he no longer owns that board eight

Paul Dawalibi:

because it was I guess stolen from him or you know that there

Paul Dawalibi:

was he was scammed out of it. I guess he no longer owns the

Paul Dawalibi:

copyright to that board a and so now he's he's trying to get it

Paul Dawalibi:

back from the person who bought it from the scammer. This is the

Paul Dawalibi:

this is sort of where the saga ends in this or what we're where

Paul Dawalibi:

we're currently at in this saga. Part of this article. Jeff, I'm

Paul Dawalibi:

curious what you make of this. There's a lot of ways to dissect

Paul Dawalibi:

this, right. First of all, like getting scammed out of the board

Paul Dawalibi:

a second of all using it in an animated TV series. The

Paul Dawalibi:

copyright issues, the ownership issues,

Jeff Cohen:

I wasn't aware that Seth Green was still alive slash

Jeff Cohen:

making content so good for him. It was still being relevant, I

Jeff Cohen:

guess, in some capacity. So that's number one. I hadn't

Jeff Cohen:

heard of him since like road trip or whatever movie he was

Jeff Cohen:

in, like 1997 is still around. It's still around. And he still

Jeff Cohen:

he looks good. He looks young. So good for him. He's looks

Jeff Cohen:

healthy. Wow, where was I? I mean, this is, I think so I'm

Jeff Cohen:

gonna put my tinfoil hat on hit the music. This is a really

Jeff Cohen:

smart publicity scam. And I say that because no one would care

Jeff Cohen:

that Seth Green was making some show about his board ape. But

Jeff Cohen:

now that the board ape was stolen, and he's going on and on

Jeff Cohen:

and getting all these articles written about how Oh, wow, like,

Jeff Cohen:

is boring. There's a reason why we're talking about it, we

Jeff Cohen:

probably wouldn't be talking about it if it hadn't been

Jeff Cohen:

stolen. I think that this is all an elaborate ruse, where, you

Jeff Cohen:

know, either was obviously this is on the blockchain so we can

Jeff Cohen:

see that someone did, you know, clearly take possession of the

Jeff Cohen:

ape. But I think this is all contrived. And it's just a

Jeff Cohen:

really smart publicity move to garner attention for for show.

Jeff Cohen:

And keep in mind, like what does that even mean? It's still even

Jeff Cohen:

if it was, quote unquote, stolen, he could still use that

Jeff Cohen:

IP. Like, what is the person who stole the IP, the ape gonna come

Jeff Cohen:

and be like, hey, like, I You owe me the royalty money for

Jeff Cohen:

this thing that I stole from him. I don't think that's how

Jeff Cohen:

the law works.

Paul Dawalibi:

Look, I think it's the genius tape right?

Paul Dawalibi:

That's a hot Take a genius stake and even think about that. Keep

Paul Dawalibi:

in mind, right in the in the in the mind of the scammer nothing

Paul Dawalibi:

was maybe stolen here, right because it says it says very

Paul Dawalibi:

vaguely some kind of phishing scam. Right? It would be hard to

Paul Dawalibi:

prove if Seth I feel like fell for the phishing scam. Right?

Paul Dawalibi:

They'll give me the willingly entered his email and password

Paul Dawalibi:

or something, you know what I mean? Isn't that like, it's

Paul Dawalibi:

fraud? It's a crime of some sort. Right. But

Jeff Cohen:

it's held them by gunpoint. Give me your

Jeff Cohen:

information.

Paul Dawalibi:

So I love to take and now that I think about it,

Paul Dawalibi:

it's kind of genius. If that's the reality, and he gets it

Paul Dawalibi:

back, right. And, and maybe he knew he would be able to get it

Paul Dawalibi:

back. Maybe it was all planned out in advance. I let me take I

Paul Dawalibi:

want to take the conversation back, though to one step before

Paul Dawalibi:

that even which is why do we care about a show? Featuring a

Paul Dawalibi:

board eight, but like, it's not a character that has any

Paul Dawalibi:

characteristics? It has this? We don't know anything about these

Paul Dawalibi:

board apes. We don't know what kind of are they nice? Are they

Paul Dawalibi:

assholes? Are they like what kind of people are they? What do

Paul Dawalibi:

they like to do for fun? If anything in the name that says

Paul Dawalibi:

they're bored, right? I don't know how you create good content

Paul Dawalibi:

around a bored ape.

Jeff Cohen:

Hence why they're doing this publicity scam,

Jeff Cohen:

because now you get people interested. But I do think you

Jeff Cohen:

bring up a more serious interesting question where, you

Jeff Cohen:

know, we've seen recently a lot of these communities try to

Jeff Cohen:

pivot towards either content or building a Metaverse or building

Jeff Cohen:

games around what is really just like a bunch of profile

Jeff Cohen:

pictures. I guess it sounds like you're fairly bearish. But

Jeff Cohen:

having said that, the apes all have interesting pictures

Jeff Cohen:

characteristics, like you could build lore around the

Jeff Cohen:

characters, I think you'd it would have to take an

Jeff Cohen:

imagination to build out a whole storyline, but like, it's no

Jeff Cohen:

different than like, there was no Harry Potter until someone

Jeff Cohen:

created the world around Harry Potter, which is the kid with a

Jeff Cohen:

scar on his face. So like prominent character does have to

Jeff Cohen:

be inherently interesting, for there to be an interesting

Jeff Cohen:

story.

Paul Dawalibi:

But is it? Are you allowed to build lore right?

Paul Dawalibi:

Because you own the copyright to that one board ape? And its

Paul Dawalibi:

image and likeness? I assume. Right? But like, if you go start

Paul Dawalibi:

making up stories about how this board ape is a drug dealer, in a

Paul Dawalibi:

world where you know, everyone's a murderous villain, like, well,

Paul Dawalibi:

will the folks that you've allowed to be like, Oh, that's

Paul Dawalibi:

cool, right? That you made up this horrible, like, lore around

Paul Dawalibi:

our, our, our characters that we create,

Jeff Cohen:

I mean, the ethos of the crypto of the whole project

Jeff Cohen:

is that it's decentralized, right? You own your ape, you own

Jeff Cohen:

your character. Now, people probably wouldn't do that.

Jeff Cohen:

Because I think if you're an owner of a board, ape, you're

Jeff Cohen:

probably part of that community. And I don't want to harm harm

Jeff Cohen:

the community but like, I don't know if there's anything

Jeff Cohen:

Yugoslavs could do to stop you. I think that's like, kind of the

Jeff Cohen:

very one of the at least purported values of buying these

Jeff Cohen:

apes. It's like, it's your APU, you could do what you want with

Jeff Cohen:

it. Yeah, it

Paul Dawalibi:

said whole feels a little backwards to me, right?

Paul Dawalibi:

Like, The Simpsons was a success, I'm fine with trying to

Paul Dawalibi:

leave another animated show that was a success. Success, people

Paul Dawalibi:

would then go and buy Simpsons merch or put a Simpsons poster

Paul Dawalibi:

on their wall or whatever it is. But it started with like good

Paul Dawalibi:

stories and good characters. Here, you're starting with just

Paul Dawalibi:

the image. And now they have to create the stories and the

Paul Dawalibi:

characters, like clear to me that that's going to be

Paul Dawalibi:

successful, or that the core material like, is a board a

Paul Dawalibi:

really the best possible animated show, someone could put

Paul Dawalibi:

on the air, right? Like in the world of concepts for new

Paul Dawalibi:

animated shows, if you take out the hype around board, apes,

Paul Dawalibi:

that was that, are there more interesting shows to be done and

Paul Dawalibi:

written. I just, I have trouble believing that this is the best

Paul Dawalibi:

extension to call it of this content, or this IP.

Jeff Cohen:

I agree. I mean, you're putting the cart before

Jeff Cohen:

the horse, you're creating the IP before creating the story and

Jeff Cohen:

the narrative, which, you know, doesn't really work. But the

Jeff Cohen:

crypto community, you know, is is is an interesting one. I

Jeff Cohen:

mean, they're very passionate, right? Like these, these apes

Jeff Cohen:

definitely do have sentimental value for people and they're

Jeff Cohen:

well known. Having said that, it is still probably a very niche

Jeff Cohen:

community. We talked about this all the time with crypto gaming,

Jeff Cohen:

you know, they it's all it's everywhere around the news, but

Jeff Cohen:

it's a very small portion of people that are actually

Jeff Cohen:

engaging with eating and playing these games for now.

Paul Dawalibi:

What do you think are the chances Seth gets his

Paul Dawalibi:

eight back?

Jeff Cohen:

I don't think he'll get his eight back but I don't

Jeff Cohen:

think that was the point here. I think he wanted to create

Jeff Cohen:

attention and I think he's done that if the show is successful,

Jeff Cohen:

he's gonna make a lot more than you know, what is one a worth?

Jeff Cohen:

This point, it'll be probably have come down in value as soon

Paul Dawalibi:

Let's, let's switch gears let's talk about

Paul Dawalibi:

someone who can definitely afford to buy a lot more apes.

Paul Dawalibi:

And this is a little bit of a, you know, tip of the hat to you

Paul Dawalibi:

and to us from our previous episode, where we talked about

Paul Dawalibi:

Andreessen XGames fund one new fund like the $600 million game

Paul Dawalibi:

gaming focused fun. This is Andreessen Horowitz again in the

Paul Dawalibi:

new CNBC article says, Andreessen Horowitz raises four

Paul Dawalibi:

and a half billion dollar crypto fund to take advantage of

Paul Dawalibi:

bargains in downmarket. Silicon Valley firm announced a new four

Paul Dawalibi:

and a half billion dollar fund for backing crypto and

Paul Dawalibi:

blockchain companies on Wednesday. Partners, Ariana

Paul Dawalibi:

Simpson and Chris Dixon liking the long term opportunity in

Paul Dawalibi:

crypto to the next major computing cycle. After PCs in

Paul Dawalibi:

the 80s. Internet in the 90s. And mobile in the early 2000s.

Paul Dawalibi:

bear markets are often when the best opportunities come about

Paul Dawalibi:

Simpson. First of all, let me just say, how cool is it to be

Paul Dawalibi:

at Andreessen Horowitz, we're raising a new fund is if the

Paul Dawalibi:

thesis here is true, right, that this was all about taking

Paul Dawalibi:

advantage of bargains? I mean, the bargains only came about in

Paul Dawalibi:

what like the last week?

Jeff Cohen:

Right? And maybe a little more than that. But yeah.

Paul Dawalibi:

Sounds like what did they do just send a letter

Paul Dawalibi:

out to their LPs and be like, raising a new fund. And two

Paul Dawalibi:

weeks later, this was four and a half billion dollars, like kind

Paul Dawalibi:

of a cool environment to be operating in as a VC. But what

Paul Dawalibi:

do you make? Jeff? You know, we did call this we said the gaming

Paul Dawalibi:

fund was was not going to be sort of was not going to live on

Paul Dawalibi:

its own. There was something that was going to follow that.

Paul Dawalibi:

Curious, your thoughts?

Jeff Cohen:

Yeah, I mean, I don't I don't have too much

Jeff Cohen:

thoughts outside the fact that I'm impressed that we really

Jeff Cohen:

did. You know, sometimes, people may think we joke when we have

Jeff Cohen:

our tinfoil hat, you know, noise which we do. But this was

Jeff Cohen:

actually exactly something we called literally, I think was

Jeff Cohen:

last week. So last week, came through so quickly. And the

Jeff Cohen:

reason we sort of sniffed that out, I think was because we we

Jeff Cohen:

thought it was odd that in the announcement for the massive

Jeff Cohen:

sport under $600 million gaming fun. There was really not much

Jeff Cohen:

or even no talk of crypto in that announcement, which is we

Jeff Cohen:

were positing like why that would be the case. And you know,

Jeff Cohen:

I think we basically said well, maybe they have another fun

Jeff Cohen:

that's going to be targeted at crypto. So kudos to us for being

Jeff Cohen:

right. I don't have much more uptake than like patting

Jeff Cohen:

ourselves on the back. I think this I actually would be

Jeff Cohen:

interested to see if they talked about gaming in this one. I

Jeff Cohen:

don't know this is a CNBC article. So I don't know, we'll

Jeff Cohen:

get the information. But I'll be curious to see if this crypto

Jeff Cohen:

dedicated fund will invest in web three games? Or if it's kind

Jeff Cohen:

of like, somewhat separate.

Paul Dawalibi:

Question for you, though, on the size. How quickly

Paul Dawalibi:

do you think they deploy this right? If this is all about

Paul Dawalibi:

opportunities that are depressed right now, right? Companies,

Paul Dawalibi:

maybe with valuations that have been hit, you know, or lower or

Paul Dawalibi:

whatever, like, if this is a really opportunistic fund around

Paul Dawalibi:

bargains, do you think they deploy this it like four and a

Paul Dawalibi:

half billion in six months in the year, two years? Is there

Paul Dawalibi:

enough out there to deploy a four and a half billion dollar

Paul Dawalibi:

fund in your mind?

Jeff Cohen:

I guess, maybe I'm a little skeptical. I wonder how

Jeff Cohen:

you would know better than I, how much of this narrative

Jeff Cohen:

around the bargains is hey, they were raising this fund for the

Jeff Cohen:

last six months. And now it closed and they're saying, Well,

Jeff Cohen:

look, we've got we did this fun, because there's bargains, I

Jeff Cohen:

don't know how realistic it would really be for them. You

Jeff Cohen:

know, even Andreessen with all the power, they have to marshal

Jeff Cohen:

that big just logistically put it together a fund that quickly.

Jeff Cohen:

So I suspect they're going to do this fund over or the normal

Jeff Cohen:

lifecycle fund, they may be a bit more aggressive with

Jeff Cohen:

valuations down here. And, you know, the market being a bit

Jeff Cohen:

softer. But I think when you're dealing with that much capital,

Jeff Cohen:

it just, it would be hard for them deploy it much faster than

Jeff Cohen:

they probably already are, like, you know, four and a half

Jeff Cohen:

billion dollars, like, it's gonna take a while to deploy

Jeff Cohen:

that. You know, just in general. I did see in the article, as you

Jeff Cohen:

add it up, it looks like they backed Adam Newman,

Paul Dawalibi:

the former founder of $70 million, which is

Jeff Cohen:

That's wild. So I guess, you know, what, you know,

Jeff Cohen:

he did build a build a massive company. So you know, you're

Jeff Cohen:

betting on a founder that's has built a multi billion dollar

Jeff Cohen:

company, I'll be it, you know, sort of almost almost ended up

Jeff Cohen:

killing it, but he did. The almost destroyed

Paul Dawalibi:

$40 billion of value. But yeah, you know, the

Paul Dawalibi:

early

Jeff Cohen:

day the first money and did well, though, I'm sure.

Paul Dawalibi:

Yeah. Look, first of all, I don't think it took

Paul Dawalibi:

them six months to raise this. I truly believe it's on the order

Paul Dawalibi:

of weeks, if not even less. And, you know, I've heard stories of

Paul Dawalibi:

Sequoia, you know, in some of the frothiest markets would

Paul Dawalibi:

literally just do that would send the letter out to their LPs

Paul Dawalibi:

and tell them look, here's your allocation. Right, you're we're

Paul Dawalibi:

raising a $2 billion fund your allocation is 200 million sign

Paul Dawalibi:

on the dotted line. And you know, we need the wire transfer

Paul Dawalibi:

by x XYZ date. I mean, in some of these frothy markets, this is

Paul Dawalibi:

how the Top funds top decile funds, go and fundraise,

Paul Dawalibi:

literally. And so I suspect this didn't take them very long to

Paul Dawalibi:

raise it all. And I suspect they're gonna deploy it

Paul Dawalibi:

relatively quickly, because I do believe there are probably

Paul Dawalibi:

bargains to be had. And the but I also think that the downturn,

Paul Dawalibi:

right, the ripple effect caused by the, you know, the blow up of

Paul Dawalibi:

the last couple of weeks is temporary, right, I think in in

Paul Dawalibi:

two months from now, three months from now, while the you

Paul Dawalibi:

know, the markets may be the public markets may still be in

Paul Dawalibi:

sort of a recession type of kind of zone. I think the enthusiasm

Paul Dawalibi:

for crypto people are going to forget very quickly, sort of

Paul Dawalibi:

this, this blow up and move on very quickly. Like I don't think

Paul Dawalibi:

this, the negative feelings and attitudes are going to last that

Paul Dawalibi:

long. And I don't think this like people are saying, Oh, the

Paul Dawalibi:

bubble burst must like to me, so a little air has come out. And

Paul Dawalibi:

then people aren't like we're gonna keep pumping air in.

Jeff Cohen:

I do wonder if we've we've hit an inflection point

Jeff Cohen:

where some of these projects that have no utility or like,

Jeff Cohen:

you know, the pictures of a rock that are selling for 20 eath.

Jeff Cohen:

Like, I hope that the bubble has burst on that. I think, clearly

Jeff Cohen:

you and I are believers in web three believers in this

Jeff Cohen:

Metaverse concept, but we do this podcast obviously. 100% But

Jeff Cohen:

and so projects that are building with actual value that

Jeff Cohen:

are Creek creating, like real technology in the space 100%

Jeff Cohen:

will still get funded because there's so much capital going

Jeff Cohen:

around. Maybe valuations briefly will be a bit lower. But I do

Jeff Cohen:

hope we're the speculative, FOMO mania, I hope that that's your

Jeff Cohen:

comment

Paul Dawalibi:

got a little no question. I think that that,

Paul Dawalibi:

Ben, this is why these natural cycles are good, right? They're,

Paul Dawalibi:

they're productive, you get rid of that 25%. That's like total

Paul Dawalibi:

noise. That's like short term cash grab. I think the industry

Paul Dawalibi:

will be way better off. That's why I say in two or three

Paul Dawalibi:

months, I think we'll be back to a lot of enthusiasm, but a lot

Paul Dawalibi:

of enthusiasm around really great projects or interesting

Paul Dawalibi:

projects. So that's it'll be interesting to see where and

Paul Dawalibi:

recent deploys all that money. But very exciting to see

Paul Dawalibi:

another, you know, huge amount of cash essentially being

Paul Dawalibi:

injected into the space. So let's talk about this next

Paul Dawalibi:

article. That Jeff, you flagged this one for a very specific

Paul Dawalibi:

reason. And I love the sort of the insight that's hopefully

Paul Dawalibi:

going to come from this and the headline here is web three games

Paul Dawalibi:

million on Mars and sunflower ran sunflower land will do cross

Paul Dawalibi:

chain event. So what's happening here is two web three games, two

Paul Dawalibi:

separate web three games, million on Mars, sunflower land,

Paul Dawalibi:

their play to own crafting games, they're creating a first

Paul Dawalibi:

of its kind cross chain, cross universe crossover event.

Paul Dawalibi:

They're built on different blockchains, wax and polygon.

Paul Dawalibi:

And they're going to enable what they say is coherent gameplay

Paul Dawalibi:

across two different networks. So two web three games building

Paul Dawalibi:

true interoperability between between the two of them. And and

Paul Dawalibi:

obviously, we've talked on this podcast about interoperability

Paul Dawalibi:

being one of those like, we will not reach the metaverse capital

Paul Dawalibi:

M until that box has been checked. Are you surprised to

Paul Dawalibi:

see something like this this soon? Do we think this is a bit

Paul Dawalibi:

more sort of PR fluff? Do you think there's going to be real

Paul Dawalibi:

takeaways and and sort of learnings from this that may

Paul Dawalibi:

lead to industry standard interoperability? I'm curious,

Paul Dawalibi:

Jeff.

Jeff Cohen:

It's the first step. I don't want to undersell This

Jeff Cohen:

is actually a big article, and like the title doesn't even

Jeff Cohen:

really do it justice. Like at all, it's fairly monumental, I

Jeff Cohen:

almost didn't even catch it. You know, it's one of the bigger

Jeff Cohen:

stories, I feel like in web three gaming, because it's

Jeff Cohen:

really the first time that one of the two separate companies, I

Jeff Cohen:

believe they're not owned by the same publisher or not owned by

Jeff Cohen:

the same developer. So two completely separate functioning

Jeff Cohen:

businesses that are trying to make profit for their

Jeff Cohen:

shareholders are coming together and having this concept of

Jeff Cohen:

interoperability. And what actually is the most surprising

Jeff Cohen:

is that it's across two different chains. Because I

Jeff Cohen:

could have seen a scenario where this was they were both on

Jeff Cohen:

Polygon, for example. And it was like polygon went to both these

Jeff Cohen:

studios was like, hey, look, we'll give you a bunch of money

Jeff Cohen:

to prove, you know, to kind of do a proof test case like we

Jeff Cohen:

want you to be the first like, hey, it's on the chain, you

Jeff Cohen:

know, it's a lot easier to put together two Lego pieces that

Jeff Cohen:

fit right use a stupid, probably bet maybe Good, maybe bad

Jeff Cohen:

analogy, but like they're on the same chain, it feels easier. The

Jeff Cohen:

fact that they're on two separate chains, is surprising.

Jeff Cohen:

So I would love to hear a bit more of a story of how this came

Jeff Cohen:

about, like EU approach to what the economic terms are. Because

Jeff Cohen:

like, we've talked about how difficult this is going to be to

Jeff Cohen:

achieve. And obviously, these are just two games, they're not

Jeff Cohen:

particularly high def graphics, like they're, you know, resource

Jeff Cohen:

management type games. So there's plenty of there's still

Jeff Cohen:

plenty that has to be done to make the metaverse a reality.

Jeff Cohen:

But I think this is pretty impactful. So I'm curious, your

Jeff Cohen:

thoughts.

Paul Dawalibi:

I think when the history is written, right, and

Paul Dawalibi:

we look back, people are going to be talking about this moment,

Paul Dawalibi:

in in much more meaningful ways. Like it, kudos to you for

Paul Dawalibi:

catching the story, because I agree that headline was not. It

Paul Dawalibi:

is really underselling this. But it'll be one of those, you know,

Paul Dawalibi:

I won't say like, Man on the Moon moments, but like, it'll go

Paul Dawalibi:

down, as you know, maybe the time someone sent their first,

Paul Dawalibi:

you know, TCP IP packet from one machine to another or something

Jeff Cohen:

like, I don't mean to cut you off, sir. Like when

Jeff Cohen:

new and esports are talking about when there's the esports

Jeff Cohen:

competition, the guy won the Ferrari. Yeah, like, exactly,

Jeff Cohen:

are you gonna be like that? Like, it'll be like, boom, you

Jeff Cohen:

talked about like that.

Paul Dawalibi:

And, and it's interesting, because when I saw

Paul Dawalibi:

the names, I had to think back, I had met the founder of the

Paul Dawalibi:

million on Mars game at the crypto Bahamas conference, which

Paul Dawalibi:

was I was at recently. And it struck me because I remember,

Paul Dawalibi:

you know, the guy was super sharp really understood what you

Paul Dawalibi:

know, where he was going with this. And it sort of all makes

Paul Dawalibi:

sense, right? Like really kind of forward thinking about, that

Paul Dawalibi:

goes beyond just sort of selfishness around success of

Paul Dawalibi:

his own game. But it's looking for six, like the pie to grow as

Paul Dawalibi:

a whole. And inter interoperability is key to that.

Paul Dawalibi:

So I mean, I just hope this is a massive success. I hope more

Paul Dawalibi:

people talk about it. I hope more people replicate this. And

Paul Dawalibi:

I love that it's happening, because that is, like we've said

Paul Dawalibi:

many times before, key pillar for, you know, any true

Paul Dawalibi:

Metaverse to actually take shape, or standards which allow

Paul Dawalibi:

this kind of interoperability. So

Jeff Cohen:

first and foremost, I hope and I think you said

Jeff Cohen:

this, like, I hope players appreciate this and opens. It's

Jeff Cohen:

a fun mechanic, I hope it brings value to both games, like

Jeff Cohen:

triggers. That's how that's how this is going to end up 60.

Jeff Cohen:

Like, the only way that this will work, is if it's fun for

Jeff Cohen:

the players, like if the players of both games, say, hey, wow,

Jeff Cohen:

I'm now playing both these games, I'm moving back and forth

Jeff Cohen:

between the two, I'm spending more money, I'm spending more

Jeff Cohen:

time I'm enjoying myself more, then every other developer is

Jeff Cohen:

going to look at this and say, wow, like, Okay, now we have to

Jeff Cohen:

do interoperability. Before it was like it's always been well,

Jeff Cohen:

why would I do it? I want to keep people in my game. But if

Jeff Cohen:

the players start demanding it, that's when you're gonna see

Jeff Cohen:

this space really quickly. inflection point, I think,

Paul Dawalibi:

true. They have to prove the value to the

Paul Dawalibi:

players. But it's also as I'm hearing you talking like, it

Paul Dawalibi:

really is so different from any game developer attitude we've

Paul Dawalibi:

seen in traditional gaming, right? Like, we talked about

Paul Dawalibi:

stuff on the business of esports podcast, it's really all the

Paul Dawalibi:

traditional gaming companies are really closed ecosystems. They

Paul Dawalibi:

do not want any interoperability, they don't

Paul Dawalibi:

care about any of that. And so it's interesting to see this

Paul Dawalibi:

initiative being taken. And like I said, I think we both hope

Paul Dawalibi:

it's massively successful. So let's move on. Let's talk about

Paul Dawalibi:

the NFL and mythical games here, Jeff. The headline here NFL

Paul Dawalibi:

mythical games to launch, play and own NFT game, NFL Rivals. It

Paul Dawalibi:

says even in this bear market, the NFL is bullish. NFL is

Paul Dawalibi:

bullish on blockchain gaming. Basically what they're doing.

Paul Dawalibi:

This Is Mythical games partnered with the NFL, developing a

Paul Dawalibi:

blockchain game called NFL Rivals. It's like a fantasy

Paul Dawalibi:

football game. So you act as like the general manager of an

Paul Dawalibi:

NFL team. You trade and players, you build up players. They're

Paul Dawalibi:

all NF T's like the team building is NF T's. And they,

Paul Dawalibi:

the NF T's represent ownership of assets, right? Obviously,

Paul Dawalibi:

players or things like that. And it's going to be free to play,

Paul Dawalibi:

you're going to get a starter team at first launch. But as you

Paul Dawalibi:

go along as you compete as you win matches or complete

Paul Dawalibi:

objectives, you'll have the opportunity to win tokens or NF

Paul Dawalibi:

T's that they don't give any details on here just says the

Paul Dawalibi:

ethical isn't quite ready to share any details on earning

Paul Dawalibi:

tokens. But that's, I suppose it's going to be better players

Paul Dawalibi:

are better ways to improve your stats, things like that. So what

Paul Dawalibi:

do we make of mythical in the NFL doing this together? The NFL

Paul Dawalibi:

invested in mythical Oh, that's an interesting data point. They

Paul Dawalibi:

were part of mythical Series C round which was $150 million. So

Paul Dawalibi:

NFL has a vested interest in mythical clearly there bullish

Paul Dawalibi:

on blockchain gaming. Do you think this is the right

Paul Dawalibi:

activation and the right, you know, the right fit?

Jeff Cohen:

Yeah, I mean, the NFL has been pretty forward

Jeff Cohen:

thinking actually, in recent years about their kind of gaming

Jeff Cohen:

strategy. I think they signed it the historically they obviously

Jeff Cohen:

had Madden and that was kind of like the main NFL video game.

Jeff Cohen:

And it's still largely is, but I think in the last couple of

Jeff Cohen:

years, you know, one they signed the deal for more of like an

Jeff Cohen:

arcade style game would take to that I believe is supposed to

Jeff Cohen:

come out sometime in the next two years. That'll be a little

Jeff Cohen:

bit like almost like NFL Blitz. There obviously doing this now.

Jeff Cohen:

And they also did a deal with skills where they're they

Jeff Cohen:

created like, they licensed games to skills, the peer to

Jeff Cohen:

peer kind of wagering company to build the build mobile games. So

Jeff Cohen:

I think the NFL was being smart in terms of diversifying away

Jeff Cohen:

from just not getting into web three getting into pure peer,

Jeff Cohen:

they obviously have been pretty heavily into sports betting with

Jeff Cohen:

partnerships with DraftKings FanDuel. So kind of broadening

Jeff Cohen:

out there like Interactive Entertainment slash gambling

Jeff Cohen:

content. So I think that's smart. It's interesting that you

Jeff Cohen:

know, they chose to invest in mythical I think, I don't even

Jeff Cohen:

know the LEA had a VC arm. So that's, that's kind of cool

Jeff Cohen:

called Dark 32. Equity. That's, that's, that sounds like a fun

Jeff Cohen:

place to work. Yeah, other than that, I mean, you know, sports

Jeff Cohen:

games are good for this, I think so rare, has proven with soccer,

Jeff Cohen:

like they've had a pretty good model. We saw dapper labs with

Jeff Cohen:

their NBA Top Shot, which isn't specifically, exactly this, but

Jeff Cohen:

the crossover between sports esports and crypto is one that

Jeff Cohen:

we've talked a lot about. So I do think this will find an

Jeff Cohen:

audience. The typical kind of crypto fan is usually like a

Jeff Cohen:

young male. So that's kind of the NFL is audience. So I

Jeff Cohen:

suspect if they build a game that actually is that actually

Jeff Cohen:

works like an economy that works in a game that's somewhat fun.

Jeff Cohen:

They'll probably have success, I think. I mean, Jeff, let's

Paul Dawalibi:

talk about that, though. The average NFL fan

Paul Dawalibi:

first of all still, like in their 50s. Right, like it's

Paul Dawalibi:

still it's still trends, older, most traditional sports trend

Paul Dawalibi:

older, I think it's actually exactly 50. The latest date,

Paul Dawalibi:

I've seen that I see a few potential scenarios, and I'm

Paul Dawalibi:

curious which one you think is most likely? Do you think this

Paul Dawalibi:

kind of partnership results in a bunch of like, older than the

Paul Dawalibi:

average crypto user, people creating wallets getting into

Paul Dawalibi:

blockchain gaming discovering this for the first time? So

Paul Dawalibi:

tapping into an entirely new, older audience, that crypto may

Paul Dawalibi:

never have reached before? Or do you think just the few you know,

Paul Dawalibi:

the minority of young NFL fans will look at this and think it's

Paul Dawalibi:

interesting because they understand crypto, they probably

Paul Dawalibi:

already have a wallet. And you know, it's already a fit. So it

Paul Dawalibi:

doesn't really grow the pie, but you have this, you know, the

Paul Dawalibi:

people who are already crypto enthusiast, who also like the

Paul Dawalibi:

NFL get into it? Or do you think the third scenario I see is it's

Paul Dawalibi:

just totally like, the fits not there at all right? So you, you

Paul Dawalibi:

get it's with falls flat because the people who this is targeted

Paul Dawalibi:

that don't have crypto wallets don't want crypto wallets don't

Paul Dawalibi:

know how to have crypto wallets, and therefore, getting started

Paul Dawalibi:

with a blockchain game is too, too heavy of a lift to make

Paul Dawalibi:

happen.

Jeff Cohen:

I definitely don't think it will be one. I think it

Jeff Cohen:

will be two or three. I guess I already said I think it will be

Jeff Cohen:

successful. So I think it'll be too I think you'll get maybe

Jeff Cohen:

that 18 to 27 year old like, crypto audience, who's also a

Jeff Cohen:

football fan. And it will be played around or planned on

Jeff Cohen:

whatever they want to call it. So if they build an economy,

Jeff Cohen:

build some hype, like maybe they'll get some sponsors to

Jeff Cohen:

come in and kind of pump it like some NFL players, or former

Jeff Cohen:

players. And so maybe you can hit like that that sort of S

Jeff Cohen:

curve like hype cycle. I think it'd be that I don't see like 55

Jeff Cohen:

year old like, you know, the Bears fan from Chicago, like

Jeff Cohen:

going and like becoming a huge fan of this mobile game. That's

Jeff Cohen:

just my intuition. I don't I don't know. What do you think?

Jeff Cohen:

Which would you bet? Yeah.

Paul Dawalibi:

I try like, I'm gonna be a little bit of a cop

Paul Dawalibi:

out here. But what else can the NFL do? Right? I always come

Paul Dawalibi:

back to that. You have an audience that's getting older.

Paul Dawalibi:

Right? You're challenged from every side whether it's gaming,

Paul Dawalibi:

whether it's other forms of entertainment, right you there's

Paul Dawalibi:

pressure from all sides to grow the sport to grow the fan base.

Paul Dawalibi:

How else do you reach younger fans? How While still, you know,

Paul Dawalibi:

trying to get people more excited about the NFL, I feel

Paul Dawalibi:

whether we think it's going to be a huge success or not. You

Paul Dawalibi:

have to be doing this, or at least you have to be trying

Paul Dawalibi:

these things. And so it's hard to it's hard to fault them and

Paul Dawalibi:

say, Oh, this is not a perfect fit, your audience is a bit

Paul Dawalibi:

older. I am. Well, that can't paralyze you, right. As a

Paul Dawalibi:

business, you can't just be like, well, our audience is

Paul Dawalibi:

older. So you know, we give up. And so I like it, right? Like I,

Paul Dawalibi:

I don't want to like it that I think it's a little bit cheesy.

Paul Dawalibi:

And like, I don't I don't think it's that exciting. But at least

Paul Dawalibi:

they're doing something at least they're trying something at

Paul Dawalibi:

least they're gonna put something out there that try and

Paul Dawalibi:

reach that audience. And I applaud them for that. I do hope

Paul Dawalibi:

it's a success because of that, because it grows the pie if it

Paul Dawalibi:

is. So we'll see. It's an interesting one. One last story

Paul Dawalibi:

here that I think is also interesting. And and you know,

Paul Dawalibi:

we talk about this stuff a lot in the on the gaming side. But

Paul Dawalibi:

in the metaverse perspective, this this is one of the first,

Paul Dawalibi:

if not the first articles, but you know, we're seeing more and

Paul Dawalibi:

more of this trend, and that is what I'll call like

Paul Dawalibi:

infrastructure. And and the headline here is Helpshift

Paul Dawalibi:

launched his free plan for Metaverse, customer support.

Paul Dawalibi:

Now, don't really care about what this plan is. It's more

Paul Dawalibi:

wanting to discuss help shift and this idea that it's a

Paul Dawalibi:

customer service company in app customer service that is focused

Paul Dawalibi:

on Metaverse apps. So we're starting to see now very

Paul Dawalibi:

specialized CALL IT infrastructure and services

Paul Dawalibi:

targeted at Metaverse stuff, Jeff.

Jeff Cohen:

So this makes perfect sense. I mean, if you

Jeff Cohen:

assume we're all going to be living, you know, we're going to

Jeff Cohen:

be spending a lot more of our time in Metaverse, you do need

Jeff Cohen:

some sort of customer support. And it should probably be native

Jeff Cohen:

to the metaverse, right. Like if you're in decentraland. And all

Jeff Cohen:

of a sudden, you're, you know, your sword disappears. Like,

Jeff Cohen:

you're gonna want to be like, hey, like, what happened to my

Jeff Cohen:

sword, like it just stopped working or disappeared or

Jeff Cohen:

whatever, I froze, whatever you might, rather than popping out

Jeff Cohen:

of the screen and typing into a chat window, or God forbid,

Jeff Cohen:

calling a one 800 Number. Maybe it would be cool if like, you

Jeff Cohen:

could just like click a button and all of a sudden that avatar

Jeff Cohen:

comes over to you. And you're just having a conversation as

Jeff Cohen:

you would in the metaverse with a chat effectively, what is a

Jeff Cohen:

chat bot? But it is an avatar. And it's not that crazy of a

Jeff Cohen:

concept, right? Like I remember, you know, you remember 10 years

Jeff Cohen:

ago, it would have been insane to think like, hey, customer

Jeff Cohen:

service, you're going to text, you know, you're going to text

Jeff Cohen:

with them. Or it's going to be a chat window, you'd be like No, I

Jeff Cohen:

have to call one 800 Number or like write a letter. Now like,

Jeff Cohen:

you know, I always have an experience whenever I'm like

Jeff Cohen:

booking a Delta flight like I always, like, you know, if I

Jeff Cohen:

have to change something I'm always texting. And it's

Jeff Cohen:

actually incredibly easy. Because it's asynchronous. And

Jeff Cohen:

it's it's actually like a somewhat pleasant experience. So

Jeff Cohen:

I think that, like, this is a big trend, just in general, like

Jeff Cohen:

b2b enterprise software, it's like the consumerization of

Jeff Cohen:

enterprise products. So it's not surprising that the metaverse,

Jeff Cohen:

you know, would would need kind of these things that are you

Paul Dawalibi:

know, it's one of those again, we'll look back on

Paul Dawalibi:

these moments is like, infrastructure and services are

Paul Dawalibi:

key to lay the foundation for everything that's being built,

Paul Dawalibi:

right. And these are boring businesses, right? Customer

Paul Dawalibi:

service is not an exciting, it's not as exciting as doing you

Paul Dawalibi:

know, fighting robot chickens, right? Like, it's just, it's not

Paul Dawalibi:

as sexy, it's not as exciting. But you need this stuff. And

Paul Dawalibi:

when this stuff starts popping up, this is where I start to get

Paul Dawalibi:

excited about the industry and where it's going as a whole

Paul Dawalibi:

because there's a recognition that to your point your sword

Paul Dawalibi:

disappears, you're gonna need someone to talk to so business

Paul Dawalibi:

view on this is very excited about it love seeing this, we're

Paul Dawalibi:

going to see a lot more right the stories, I you services and

Paul Dawalibi:

infrastructure ends up being a lot of, you know, in this where

Paul Dawalibi:

we are in the lifecycle, I think of what we're going to see going

Paul Dawalibi:

forward. My sort of silly your take on it is if we go back to

Paul Dawalibi:

the original Metaverse World of Warcraft, which I will call the

Paul Dawalibi:

original, like, I know there's meta verses before that, but the

Paul Dawalibi:

real the real one that matters. And as a gamer, I can say that

Paul Dawalibi:

World of Warcraft, right? You know, those things happened in

Paul Dawalibi:

World of Warcraft, like your sword could have like, could

Paul Dawalibi:

sometimes disappear. You would loot a monster and maybe not get

Paul Dawalibi:

the thing you were supposed to get. And there were people in

Paul Dawalibi:

World of Warcraft that were like guides or Game Masters

Paul Dawalibi:

essentially, that would show up they would appear right in the

Paul Dawalibi:

game to solve your problem get you unstuck try and get your

Paul Dawalibi:

sword back whatever it was. The funny thing about WoW is there

Paul Dawalibi:

were there were instances in WoW of where the customer who these

Paul Dawalibi:

people who are essentially customer support because they

Paul Dawalibi:

had to To solve these kinds of problems, they were essentially

Paul Dawalibi:

like the most powerful beings within Wow. And within this

Paul Dawalibi:

Metaverse, right, like they had to be all powerful to be able to

Paul Dawalibi:

solve people's problems. And you ended up with customer support

Paul Dawalibi:

people who had God complexes, right? Because they could go

Paul Dawalibi:

anywhere, do anything, make anything appear disappear, right

Paul Dawalibi:

to be able to solve, and I fear that customer support in the

Paul Dawalibi:

metaverse specifically, they go down this path of you need to

Paul Dawalibi:

give them powers. But powers in a virtual universe go beyond

Paul Dawalibi:

just like, hey, I'm processing your refund over the phone. You

Paul Dawalibi:

become like way more powerful in a virtual setting. In the

Paul Dawalibi:

metaverse

Jeff Cohen:

centralized, and there's real dollars in play

Jeff Cohen:

like, you know, this kind of gets goes to the elf con

Jeff Cohen:

concept. You know, this here and this this article that I'm

Jeff Cohen:

pulling up, the elf will be the most powerful and subtle form of

Jeff Cohen:

coercion in the metaverse. These electronic life facilitators are

Jeff Cohen:

the natural evolution of digital assistants like Siri and Alexa,

Jeff Cohen:

but they won't be disembodied voices in the metaverse.

Jeff Cohen:

There'll be an through I don't know what that word

Jeff Cohen:

anthropomorphic for so anthropomorphic personas

Jeff Cohen:

customized for each customer. Yes, they'll be else. Very

Jeff Cohen:

interesting. This is a fascinating art,

Paul Dawalibi:

all powerful else. That's what people have to

Paul Dawalibi:

look forward to in the metaverse what better way to end Jeff, I

Paul Dawalibi:

gotta say, another great episode. I enjoyed this. Thank

Paul Dawalibi:

you. Thank you guys for listening and tuning in every

Paul Dawalibi:

week. Don't forget, make sure to subscribe to the podcast on

Paul Dawalibi:

whatever app you get us. Share it with a friend send it to like

Paul Dawalibi:

two people or leave a review one or the other. Do one of those

Paul Dawalibi:

two things. We really appreciated how the podcast

Paul Dawalibi:

continues to grow. We'd love doing this for you guys. It's so

Paul Dawalibi:

much fun every week. Don't forget, the future is fun. We

Paul Dawalibi:

will see you guys next week.

Unknown:

Thanks for joining us here on meta business. Make sure

Unknown:

to subscribe to this podcast everywhere you get your

Unknown:

podcasts, leave a five star review and tell your friends

Unknown:

family and colleagues all about us. Also make sure to follow

Unknown:

meta TV on all socials to get more of the best Metaverse

Unknown:

content anywhere. Tune in every week for another episode of meta

Listen for free

Show artwork for META Business

About the Podcast

META Business
From the metaverse to the boardroom...
Meta Business tackles the most important Metaverse industry news. Business experts dissect and discuss all of the hottest topics and happenings, from a unique C-suite perspective.

About your host

Profile picture for Paul Dawalibi

Paul Dawalibi