Episode 19

full
Published on:

5th Apr 2022

19. Axie Infinity Hacked, AR Contacts, Play And Earn Variations, Metaverse Fashion Week

In this episode, we discuss Mojo Vision's augmented reality contact lens prototype, Alibaba leading a $60 million investment round for Nreal AR glasses, Anthony Charlton arguing games should follow the play-and-earn model, DeFinance Capital and Delphi Digital backing Crypto Raiders, hackers stealing $620 million worth of cryptocurrencies from Axie Infinity, what it's like attending metaverse Fashion Week, and so much more!

Episode 19 Keywords: Mojo Vision, augmented reality contact lenses, Alibaba investments, Nreal, AR glasses, Anthony Charlton, play-and-earn models, DeFinance Captial, Delphi Digital, Crypto Raiders, hackers, cryptocurrencies, Axie Infinity, metaverse Fashion Week

Transcript
Unknown:

Welcome to the metaphysics podcast. The Metaverse and web three are bringing about the

Unknown:

biggest revolution since the internet itself. With your hosts Paul the prophet Dawalibi And Jeff the

Unknown:

juice Cohen. We will be bringing you the latest Metaverse, business news and insight into what it

Unknown:

all means. The meta business podcast starts now.

Paul Dawalibi:

From the boardroom to the metaverse. This is the meta business podcast. I am

Paul Dawalibi:

Paul Dawalibi. I'm joined today by my friend and co host, Jeff, the juice Cohen. For those of you

Paul Dawalibi:

who are new here, welcome to the official podcast of the metaverse, what we do is we cover the most

Paul Dawalibi:

pressing, Metaverse, topics and news of the week. But we look at all of it through a business and C

Paul Dawalibi:

suite lens, we dissect, we analyze the business implications of everything happening in this

Paul Dawalibi:

amazing industry. For our regular listeners. Thank you guys for tuning in every week. Thank you for

Paul Dawalibi:

all the love the five star ratings and reviews if you haven't yet, share the meta Business Podcast

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with your friends, your family, your colleagues, leave a five star rating and review. Or if you

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don't want to do any of the above, at least hit that follow or subscribe button. Wherever you

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listen to this podcast. We really appreciate it. It helps others to find the show. Jeff, how you

Paul Dawalibi:

doing this week?

Jeff Cohen:

Good. That felt like a new a new intro. And we face Oh,

Paul Dawalibi:

it's same intro. I literally do it almost like three times a week with slight

Paul Dawalibi:

variations between each one. And you as you know now, I don't do it with a script. And I do it live

Paul Dawalibi:

every time. For whatever

Jeff Cohen:

reason I never thought I'd heard you save the official podcast matters. I was gonna say

Jeff Cohen:

we were now spot you know, we're now sponsored by the capital.

Paul Dawalibi:

Well, our sister podcast business of esports podcast has always been the official

Paul Dawalibi:

podcast of esports. Everyone knows that that way. And no reason why this shouldn't be the official

Paul Dawalibi:

podcast of the metaverse. How was your week? It was good.

Jeff Cohen:

It's good. Yeah, it's always busy here. You know, ACC was traveling last week. So

Jeff Cohen:

it's good to be to be back in the home studio here. I feel like we have such a busy week of news

Jeff Cohen:

like, maybe not that we've had bigger weeks in terms of one story being bigger, but we have like

Jeff Cohen:

a bevy of stories that feels like too

Paul Dawalibi:

many. I don't know if we're gonna get to them all we're gonna try. And so let me

Paul Dawalibi:

introduce the first let's do the first two stories sort of together. And I think, you know, you

Paul Dawalibi:

mentioned you were traveling. This is an interesting one in terms of getting into the

Paul Dawalibi:

metaverse, right like we we've been talking a lot about the metaverse and what's there once you're

Paul Dawalibi:

there, and you know, what it should be and what it's not. And but I think we've sort of hit very

Paul Dawalibi:

little on how do you actually get there, right? Like, how do we access this virtual world. And

Paul Dawalibi:

there's two articles here two technologies that I think are really interesting. The first one here,

Paul Dawalibi:

this is from VentureBeat. And the headline is Mojo vision, unveils latest augmented reality contact

Paul Dawalibi:

lens prototype, there's this very cool looking contact lens with what looks like circuitry and

Paul Dawalibi:

stuff inside of it. Obviously, if you're listening to this, you can't see it. So I'm trying to

Paul Dawalibi:

describe it here. But the smart what they call a smart contact lens is going to bring invisible

Paul Dawalibi:

computing to life, the company believes it's a they've reached the sort of critical milestone

Paul Dawalibi:

with this prototype. And it's going to enable what they call like innovation at the intersection of

Paul Dawalibi:

smartphones, AR VR, smart wearables, health tech, etc. So it's going to have a display in it.

Paul Dawalibi:

Initially, the target markets for people with like poor vision, but obviously we could see something

Paul Dawalibi:

like this developing into an on ramp, a very seamless on ramp to potentially a virtual world

Paul Dawalibi:

where you don't have to wear something, you know, big clunky headset on your face. I will put this

Paul Dawalibi:

next to the next story, which is Alibaba on the news, leaving a $60 million funding round into AR

Paul Dawalibi:

glasses maker Enrile. And obviously, that's going to go towards r&d. They're a Chinese company, or

Paul Dawalibi:

at least the most, I think they're a Canadian company originally and but they released most of

Paul Dawalibi:

their products in China first. They have two products today, the light or the air. There's a

Paul Dawalibi:

picture here, they're a little bit clunky, they sort of look like clunky. What do you call those

Paul Dawalibi:

sports glasses, like Oh, clean style glasses. And they also think they're going to be building sort

Paul Dawalibi:

of the on ramps to, you know, great mixed reality experiences with these sort of cool more seamless

Paul Dawalibi:

Looking Glasses. Now, you know, we like I said, we've spent a lot of time talking about the

Paul Dawalibi:

metaverse itself. What do you make of new developments? Jeff around the on ramps to the

Paul Dawalibi:

metaverse and what do you think will win The day like if you had to, you had a crystal ball here.

Jeff Cohen:

And I mean, the first one is super exciting. And I wonder if we had talked about a

Jeff Cohen:

similar company a bunch of episodes back, I wonder if it actually same one that was doing kind of

Jeff Cohen:

wearable, you know, AI technology, although it seemed like they were, you know, waiting way

Jeff Cohen:

earlier stage this one they have a prototype that will be very curious to, to actually try and see

Jeff Cohen:

what you know whether the reality is is kind of as much sold. The one thing I thought was funny, just

Jeff Cohen:

as an aside, you said the target market it was to start with people with that vision is just a

Jeff Cohen:

massively small, you know, vision vision pun intended, when you're thinking about what the what

Jeff Cohen:

they're going after creating the metaverse wearable technology that it's like, oh, actually,

Jeff Cohen:

it's just a contact lens. So that's felt funny to me. There, but you know, this this, this one is

Jeff Cohen:

super interesting. I think we've gone back and forth on this podcast and I know a lot of kind of

Jeff Cohen:

thought leaders around the metaverse have gone back and forth whether you know, the metaverse

Jeff Cohen:

needs to be VR, whether it will be us wearing some sort of wearable, like how we will enter the

Jeff Cohen:

metaverse if you will. And I've gone back and forth, you know, personally as well. I do think

Jeff Cohen:

you know, for us to get to like the capital T capital M Metaverse that we always sort of talk

Jeff Cohen:

about, I do think it's going to have to be some sort of virtual reality, you know, you're going to

Jeff Cohen:

have have physical field physical presence in a virtual world. And I'm not sure that you can get

Jeff Cohen:

that with the current platforms that we have Roblox fortnight to the world. I mean, I don't

Jeff Cohen:

know if you just

Paul Dawalibi:

obviously, like the closest we come today or the good VR headsets, right? And let's

Paul Dawalibi:

put aside other senses, right? Like, let's put aside smell, and taste and like movement and, you

Paul Dawalibi:

know, like sensation in your body? Because that's solved by other hardware, right, potentially. So

Paul Dawalibi:

like, park that for the moment? How do we solve like, making your vision and and what you're

Paul Dawalibi:

seeing immersive to the point where you forget, potentially you're in a virtual world, or you can

Paul Dawalibi:

spend most of your, your awake life in the virtual world, right? The closest we come today are these

Paul Dawalibi:

VR headsets. But my question is, how immersive and invasive do the hardware solutions become over

Paul Dawalibi:

time? And where what what is the end game, right? Because I can see the current crop of VR headset

Paul Dawalibi:

VR headsets getting thinner and lighter, right? And maybe that look starts to look and feel more

Paul Dawalibi:

like an Enrile pair of glasses, right? Where you can't really tell you're wearing anything other

Paul Dawalibi:

than maybe a slightly thicker pair of sunglasses, right that I could see it as a potential end game.

Paul Dawalibi:

But I could be convinced that contact lens with a whole bunch of intelligence inside of it, and the

Paul Dawalibi:

microprocessor and battery, and screen and like all the things that Mojo was putting up putting in

Paul Dawalibi:

this contact lens, I could see that as a potential end game. I think the ultimate end game and it's

Paul Dawalibi:

not clear if we ever get if we get to this by choice or otherwise, is an implant right? Because

Paul Dawalibi:

the fastest way to immerse your all your senses, in not just your vision is to just control the

Paul Dawalibi:

electrical signals going to your brain. And that solves for potentially smell and other things as

Paul Dawalibi:

well. I don't know, I don't know if there's a point where society sort of pushes back and says

Paul Dawalibi:

that's too far. Or, or if we're just seeing sort of this evolution happen over time VR headsets,

Paul Dawalibi:

contact lenses, eventually implants? I don't know. I'm curious where you think it ends.

Jeff Cohen:

I mean, implants is interesting. I think if we're talking, you know, 30 years, 50

Jeff Cohen:

years, then I could see that there's always with any of these things clearly going to be a an

Jeff Cohen:

adoption curve. You know, do I see people implanting themselves with these sort of VR

Jeff Cohen:

devices and entering the metaverse anytime really soon? No, um, might we get some early prototypes

Jeff Cohen:

and stuff like that in the next decade? I think I could kind of buy that. But if we're talking about

Jeff Cohen:

a large percentage of people kind of implanting themselves with a sort of psychedelic chip, if you

Jeff Cohen:

will, I think we're a long way away from that. mainstream adoption.

Paul Dawalibi:

No, contact lens is a nice medium, right? It's not invasive, but it's also like the

Paul Dawalibi:

probably the most seamless kind of experience you could imagine that what I think an implant solves

Paul Dawalibi:

for though his other senses, right? Even with a contact lens. You can't solve for smell, you can't

Paul Dawalibi:

solve for taste. You can't solve for some of these other things which an implant in theory could

Jeff Cohen:

Another thing an input or sorry, a contact lens can do is opens up a lot more AR

Jeff Cohen:

versus VR, which I think you know it maybe it gets us away from kind of the metaverse a little bit.

Jeff Cohen:

But I think it creates a lot of really interesting things you could do in the physical world with,

Jeff Cohen:

you know, gamifying different things that you see on your thigh as you're out in the world.

Paul Dawalibi:

Jeff, I want to move on, because we've got a lot to cover here. And I think there's

Paul Dawalibi:

two stories here. Again, I want to put them back to back. Because it's I think this will be a never

Paul Dawalibi:

ending debate on this podcast, and I'm sure in other forums, but the headline here again, another

Paul Dawalibi:

VentureBeat article says, games should promote, play and earn instead of play to earn. Now, this

Paul Dawalibi:

is not the first time I've heard this argument, right. Like the panel I was on, someone used this

Paul Dawalibi:

argument with me. You know, spoiler alert, I disagreed. But, you know, they talk about how they

Paul Dawalibi:

give a little bit of history of MMOs and how, you know, people used to farm loot there and sell them

Paul Dawalibi:

in the real world for dollars. And you know, this is really about meeting gamers where they live and

Paul Dawalibi:

play to earn has had this rocky start people have, you know, this misconception about it. And one way

Paul Dawalibi:

to make this palatable for gamers, is instead of play to earn may adopt this play and earn

Paul Dawalibi:

philosophy when according to the author here, it says, what that means is making virtual items tied

Paul Dawalibi:

to tokens and NF t's a nice bonus, instead of the objective. Fundamentally, gamers want to complete

Paul Dawalibi:

a game not collect loot boxes, or become day traders. So interesting argument here for play and

Paul Dawalibi:

earn versus play to earn. I want to put this next to another article, because I want to give you

Paul Dawalibi:

sort of a trio of terms to argue over here. This is from coin desk, and they're talking about a

Paul Dawalibi:

capital race. So defiance capital, and Delphi digital co lead a $6 million round for crypto

Paul Dawalibi:

Raiders, which is an NFT game. But this NFT game, it's their role playing game, they prefer the term

Paul Dawalibi:

play to own overplayed earn. So let me just summarize here, without going into too much detail

Paul Dawalibi:

on any of these articles. It seems everyone now is allergic to play to earn. Right. And I think it's

Paul Dawalibi:

that allergy came on very fast. Because no one wants to be associated with play to earn anymore,

Paul Dawalibi:

even though it was maybe the hottest thing, literally just you know, a few months ago. And now

Paul Dawalibi:

we're all everyone's trying to reframe it. Okay. And one of the proposed wordings here is play and

Paul Dawalibi:

earn. And then the other proposed wording here is play to own I'm not sure if play and earn or play

Paul Dawalibi:

to own are drastically different. But curious, your thoughts on kind of perhaps the

Jeff Cohen:

thoughts on this because I actually, and I'm 99% sure that the the makers of this

Jeff Cohen:

crypto Raiders game did not read my LinkedIn post a month ago and but if they did, I'd be super

Jeff Cohen:

honored. Because I wrote this on LinkedIn a month ago, and I think you actually had had the exact

Jeff Cohen:

same take I frankly, probably copied you because you're much smarter than I am. But I'll redo it is

Jeff Cohen:

that the web three game ecosystem is losing the PR battle with traditional games. I've seen a lot of

Jeff Cohen:

takes about play to earn versus play Ender. In my opinion, this distinction isn't the problem. The

Jeff Cohen:

problem is the focus on earning earning creates a connotation that the gamer is working, doing a job

Jeff Cohen:

I think the space would be well served to focus on ownership rather than earning potential.

Jeff Cohen:

Blockchain gaming enables players to have real ownership over the in game items they purchase the

Jeff Cohen:

current focus on earning creates a bad taste in gamers mouth and invites needless speculation.

Jeff Cohen:

This is unsustainable. Let's move to play and I pretty much nailed that. You know,

Paul Dawalibi:

I mean, I was with you like 80% of the way and it was it was my take I made like that

Paul Dawalibi:

was pretty much my take it at the you know the crypto conference I spoke at on Play to earn

Paul Dawalibi:

gaming specifically. Now you used to play and own a force variation.

Jeff Cohen:

Ownership is not the point of play. I think that was like you're playing and

Paul Dawalibi:

that's the difference between so I was with you completely You had me right with you.

Paul Dawalibi:

gamers don't want to earn feels like a job right? You're gonna get pushed back whether it's to earn

Paul Dawalibi:

or and earn. Right all feels about the same. But why was ownership different than earning because

Paul Dawalibi:

you earn to own?

Jeff Cohen:

No, not necessarily right? Like owning like,

Paul Dawalibi:

like, what's the point of owning if it has no value,

Jeff Cohen:

I own plenty of things that have no value. I collect pens, for example, I own those

Jeff Cohen:

pens, they definitely have no value, but I own them, I theoretically could sell them, I

Jeff Cohen:

theoretically could throw them away. Like I think that's the important thing about it is the

Jeff Cohen:

distinction. I actually think it is an important distinction, because it's like, when you're

Jeff Cohen:

talking about earning, like I go to work everyday, earn money, right ownership is is different. You

Jeff Cohen:

can own the assets and never think about them in a monetary sense. It could just be Hey, I own them.

Jeff Cohen:

And I can eventually hopefully be able to, there'll be interoperability, so I can bring them

Jeff Cohen:

to another game. So I might not, you know, I might own the gun and Call of Duty and bring it to

Jeff Cohen:

Battlefield. I know that example. Almost certainly never actually work. But hypothetically, I never

Jeff Cohen:

have to sell that gun, but I own it. And I can bring it to the next day.

Paul Dawalibi:

I think that's basically just gaming them. Like, in every game I play there, I

Paul Dawalibi:

have items in my inventory, right? Whether it's Wow, or Counter Strike, or Call of Duty or

Paul Dawalibi:

fortnight or apex or right. I own things in all those games. Like, if it's not about the monetary

Paul Dawalibi:

value of those things. It's sort of just gaming then.

Jeff Cohen:

Well, I mean, number one, I hope that is the case. I think for this to be sustainable.

Jeff Cohen:

It should be about gaming number one. So you're you're probably right. I think the

Jeff Cohen:

interoperability pieces where you may own them. But Activision, could one day just come and shut

Jeff Cohen:

down the servers. Wow, everything you bought, you don't really think you're you're renting it. So I

Jeff Cohen:

think there is that little bit of distinction. Well, I,

Paul Dawalibi:

I feel like this whole the whole community loves getting lost in this intellectual

Paul Dawalibi:

argument of like, what? Weiss? It At what point did play not become good enough? And we had to put

Paul Dawalibi:

two words after it right. Like, and we were arguing is it to own to earn and earn and own to

Paul Dawalibi:

this to that, like, play should just have been good enough. It's been good enough for a long

Paul Dawalibi:

time. It should continue to be good enough. And, and then my pushback Oh, is and this is my take on

Paul Dawalibi:

it. It's not that hard of a take anymore is why can't we find other ways to create value with

Paul Dawalibi:

Blockchain or NF TS or things like that, that don't have to do with owning earning. Like any of

Paul Dawalibi:

the above, right or any other verb people want to put after play. I just feel like we're all going

Paul Dawalibi:

to agree play to own is better. And then six months from now, everyone's going to be surprised

Paul Dawalibi:

when gamers don't want to play to own right and like and are going to push back. Just none of it

Paul Dawalibi:

feels it feels real authentic to me, for gamers standpoint. But I don't know. It feels like a

Paul Dawalibi:

little bit of a useless argument. Because anything that takes away from the play feels like the game

Paul Dawalibi:

is worse in some small way. And if it can't be better, in an obvious way, it's all going to fail.

Paul Dawalibi:

Now, I'm a big proponent of how do we figure out how to marry blockchain or NF T's with gaming

Paul Dawalibi:

right? I'm a huge fan of this. I think it could be a massive piece of the industry. But I

Paul Dawalibi:

continuously challenge myself and others to figure out how are we adding value to gamers beyond just

Paul Dawalibi:

words? Right because the words feel fancy for nothing. And the arguments sort of feel academic

Paul Dawalibi:

for nothing.

Jeff Cohen:

I guess one thing I'm think one does maybe other distinction. And maybe I don't even

Jeff Cohen:

know if this entirely accurate. But there's a difference between owning the endgame items versus

Jeff Cohen:

earning in game currency. Okay, know what's actually a big part of it is like you're playing

Jeff Cohen:

the game to earn that smooth Love Potion SLP that you can then trade for Fiat. Versus like, Hey, I

Jeff Cohen:

bought a sword I now own the sword. It's pretty cool to own the sword. I could sell it. I could

Jeff Cohen:

put it in a different game. Like, that's cool. Versus like, Hey, I'm gonna use the sword. I'm

Jeff Cohen:

gonna kill a monster there's gonna be a bunch of gold that shoots out and that gold is worth money

Jeff Cohen:

and I'm just gonna do it endlessly all day. Like that. Those are two different

Paul Dawalibi:

Yeah, like you're right and so maybe owns a little bit better. But the end earn

Paul Dawalibi:

or to earn to me are equally bad, like literally equally bad. And I always come back.

Jeff Cohen:

All these people infer that these people on Twitter and they say this take this

Jeff Cohen:

whole article They say it as if it's like, oh my god, you had this crazy thought. And it's like,

Jeff Cohen:

you fixed it.

Paul Dawalibi:

We changed to

Jeff Cohen:

totally get it now, like, oh my god, we just had to change that one word and

Jeff Cohen:

everything's fixed.

Paul Dawalibi:

makes me so angry. And you know, my counter is always just like, replace the play with

Paul Dawalibi:

some traditional sport. So it's not a video game, and realize how ridiculous this argument is,

Paul Dawalibi:

right? Like, I'm going to play basketball to earn versus play basketball and earn, like, it's not

Paul Dawalibi:

going to change how many people want to play basketball, like it will literally have no impact.

Paul Dawalibi:

It's it's a silly distinction. And it's, it feels like a crutch, right? Because because then people

Paul Dawalibi:

can avoid the real problem, which is how do we figure out how to drive real benefit to the gamer?

Paul Dawalibi:

You mentioned x infinity, Jeff, and I think it's a great segue to the next story x infinity in the

Paul Dawalibi:

news. And, you know, maybe this is the biggest, you know, crypto NFT Metaverse web three story

Paul Dawalibi:

this week. And and it's a huge hack. This is again, VentureBeat, and the article, the headline

Paul Dawalibi:

is, hackers steal 620 million in Aetherium, and dollars from xe infinity maker sky matresses. Run

Paul Dawalibi:

in network. Now, without getting too much into the details here, I'll just give you the high level

Paul Dawalibi:

they stole 173,600 Ethereum worth $594,000,000.25 point 5 million US dollars. So for a total of 620

Paul Dawalibi:

million. What was hacked was their layer two network called the ronin network. And basically,

Paul Dawalibi:

they were able to take control, there's nine nodes that control this network. And they were able to

Paul Dawalibi:

take control of a majority of them, which gave them control of the whole network. So five of the

Paul Dawalibi:

nodes essentially were compromised out of the nine. And that allowed the hackers to take control

Paul Dawalibi:

of the network and to fake essentially transaction. So have transactions executed on the

Paul Dawalibi:

network that were not authorized, obviously, so huge hack, huge amount of dollars stolen?

Paul Dawalibi:

Obviously, your thoughts on this, but like, Where does a company like xe infinity go from here? I'm

Paul Dawalibi:

assuming these are player losses, not just company losses, like, are they going to have to cough up

Paul Dawalibi:

hundreds of millions of dollars to reimburse players also?

Jeff Cohen:

I don't know. I mean, it's it's very interesting. And I really get there's so much

Jeff Cohen:

here, like at the intersection of gaming and crypto and some of it I don't even know if I'm

Jeff Cohen:

necessarily qualified to even, you know, get in depth into, like, for example, to answer your last

Jeff Cohen:

question. I don't know if it's player losses, or if it's, I know there is a governance token,

Jeff Cohen:

right. So the players of the game can earn this, he gets ROI, that Ronan pokin. And then there's

Jeff Cohen:

like a dowel and the XE Dow. That's one of the validators. So I don't know if it's the Dow that

Jeff Cohen:

lost money. I don't know if it's the company's governance tokens, which are partially owned by

Jeff Cohen:

sky Mavis, the company that owns x infinity and partially by the community. You know, we're

Jeff Cohen:

pulling up another article here. So for people who are watching there, it looks like the the the

Jeff Cohen:

ronin governance token. So aro n, you know, was down 40%, you know, on this news, so obviously,

Jeff Cohen:

that's a massive hit. I think I think the biggest takeaway for me, it's a disaster for Sky Maven. I

Jeff Cohen:

mean, they've already been facing, I would say, a lot of criticism around xe, you know, xe, if we

Jeff Cohen:

rewind to kind of like, over the last summer, I think, was sort of the belle of the ball, because

Jeff Cohen:

it was kind of the first player to earn game that really went. I use mainstream with kind of quotes

Jeff Cohen:

because it didn't really go mainstream.

Paul Dawalibi:

Yeah, first of all, it's some kind of significant player, but yeah,

Jeff Cohen:

exactly, exactly. But then I think people pretty quickly realize, you know, recognize

Jeff Cohen:

a lot of the inherent flaws in the model and how it, you know, kind of relied on a little bit of a

Jeff Cohen:

Ponzi mechanic and sort of like it wasn't really sustainable. So it's taken a fair amount of heat,

Jeff Cohen:

and they've had some changes that they're looking to make to get away from that. But I think a big

Jeff Cohen:

part of the reason why Skye Mavis was able to raise so much money was this, this Ronan? Shane,

Jeff Cohen:

and kind of the I think Ronan has a wallet as well. And it was a little bit how when people talk

Jeff Cohen:

about epic and fortnight they're like, well, fortnight maybe we're declining, but like people

Jeff Cohen:

are buying investors are buying epic because of the Unreal Engine. The store, like Ronin, I think

Jeff Cohen:

was that part of the story where it was like Hey, other company, other game companies are gonna

Jeff Cohen:

build on road to chain and it's this infrastructure play. It's more than just x

Jeff Cohen:

infinity. And so the fact that Ronin was come to the part of the company that you know, obviously

Jeff Cohen:

had this had this hack, I think is a huge issue. For DJI Mavic, because it literally shows that the

Jeff Cohen:

chain of vulnerability, and what will happen here, I think it'll be interesting to see whether

Jeff Cohen:

they're able to recover it. I know, in the history of crypto, there's been a lot of these sort of

Jeff Cohen:

Acts where sometimes they're able to kind of do something to get the money back. Other times, not

Jeff Cohen:

so, you know, it'll be interesting to follow. Obviously, we wish sky Mavis the best of luck and

Jeff Cohen:

really for the industry, because, you know, we're both very bullish on kind of this this industry.

Jeff Cohen:

And we don't want, you know, something like this to be a black mark, which currently right now, I

Jeff Cohen:

think it is, like, how sustainable can this be if the biggest behemoth out there just lost, you

Jeff Cohen:

know, over half a billion dollars, you know, in Finnair that's my it's

Paul Dawalibi:

a huge number, like mind boggling, mind boggling in terms of the size of the number.

Paul Dawalibi:

I think what has always worried me is as the complexity of these platforms, increase it, like,

Paul Dawalibi:

here's my take, sometimes it feels like these platforms are needlessly complex. And they're

Paul Dawalibi:

needlessly complex. Because it, you know, it, it confers some benefit, some small benefit to the

Paul Dawalibi:

user, or it makes it sound more interesting as a platform to investors, or whatever the reasoning

Paul Dawalibi:

is, I find some of these plays. And I'm not saying specifically with xe infinity here, but needlessly

Paul Dawalibi:

complex. And when you have complexity, it's hard to protect, right? Like, any system that has many,

Paul Dawalibi:

many pieces to it, and entry points and ways to get in and ways to hack is difficult to secure.

Paul Dawalibi:

And if a company that has that as sort of as mature as a sky Mavis, right, probably more mature

Paul Dawalibi:

than other players in the space by a significant margin. Again, not a, it's not some runtime meta

Paul Dawalibi:

company that's been around for the last 20 years, but you know, they've raised quite a bit of money

Paul Dawalibi:

they've been they've had success, you would think their platform would be very secure. I just think

Paul Dawalibi:

part of the challenge is the massive complexity of these platforms, make them very, very, very

Paul Dawalibi:

difficult to secure. And when you're talking about this large of a prize, you're gonna have people

Paul Dawalibi:

trying to get in rightly, it's just this is just the reality of it. And so I don't know what the

Paul Dawalibi:

answer is, I don't know, if when we need to be simplifying some of these platforms and how they

Paul Dawalibi:

operate, we need, you know, we need a whole crop of companies that are all about security around,

Paul Dawalibi:

you know, some of these played around games, I don't know, I suspect this will not be the this is

Paul Dawalibi:

not the first this is not the last big hack we're gonna see. But I think it's something that is

Paul Dawalibi:

doesn't get enough attention and really needs to write like, this needs to be fixed fast, or that

Paul Dawalibi:

whole segment of that gaming play to earn gaming space. I mean, if I personally lost money here,

Paul Dawalibi:

what's the chance I come back to xe infinity?

Jeff Cohen:

Probably pretty, pretty low. Probably pretty low. And I think this gets to the heart of

Jeff Cohen:

one of the you know, I think the term for it is the blockchain trilemma. And it's it's basically

Jeff Cohen:

this concept of, you know, there's there's three things. You have decentralization, scalability and

Jeff Cohen:

security, security. And you can really pick two of the three, I think, with Ronan, you know, they

Jeff Cohen:

kind of picked scalability and decentralization and obviously, security was was an issue.

Paul Dawalibi:

That's an interesting, I've not I've not heard that term. And I think it's an

Paul Dawalibi:

interesting one, Jeff, I mean, and maybe that's the case, right? Maybe no one will be able to pick

Paul Dawalibi:

all three. I can guarantee more. We'll be picking security after new stories like that. Let's move

Paul Dawalibi:

on. This last story, I think is super interesting. You know, it's a topic we've touched on before.

Paul Dawalibi:

But the take here, and the article here was particularly interesting. And the headline is I

Paul Dawalibi:

went to fashion week in the metaverse now. It's a long article. I'm not going to recap everything.

Paul Dawalibi:

But they talk about you know, the metaverse in general. They talked about some of the stores they

Paul Dawalibi:

went to like Dolce and Gabbana and decentraland. They talk about, you know how they entered the

Paul Dawalibi:

metaverse. Although this author she says she was using her decade old MacBook Air, which I probably

Paul Dawalibi:

could have advised was the wrong piece of hardware to be doing this to begin with, you know, making

Paul Dawalibi:

her Avatar the problems with the graphics. an after party that she went to, you know, some of

Paul Dawalibi:

the stores in the luxury district and decentraland inside some of the stores. There's some images

Paul Dawalibi:

here, but in general talked about her experience going to Fashion Week and her experience

Paul Dawalibi:

interacting with both the events and the static, call it presence that many brands now have in

Paul Dawalibi:

decentraland. Specifically, I'll just read this one thing it says decentralized event has been

Paul Dawalibi:

described as the first inclusive fashion week, offering a front row seat to anyone with a crypto

Paul Dawalibi:

wallet. But it took two Mac computers and a Dell laptop for me to finally enter decentraland. And

Paul Dawalibi:

even then my sessions lasted 15 minutes at a time before crashing. Now, this is definitely user

Paul Dawalibi:

error, right? Because you don't play you know, graphically intensive games on a decade old

Paul Dawalibi:

MacBook or a Dell laptop. But they concluded by saying glitches aside the experience diff did

Paul Dawalibi:

offer a window into a fascinating furred future worthy of exploration. The ambition behind

Paul Dawalibi:

decentralized first Fashion Week was cause for celebration, and fashion is about newness and

Paul Dawalibi:

novelty than the metaverse was the most on Vogue venue in town. What did you make of this article?

Paul Dawalibi:

I know Jeff, you read it. What did you think of this take on going to the first fashion week in

Paul Dawalibi:

the metaverse and the future of fashion in the metaverse?

Jeff Cohen:

Well, I think he did a pretty good job of being being balanced. I mean, like you said,

Jeff Cohen:

some of the issues that she faced were obviously, you know, her own fault by trying to access the

Jeff Cohen:

metaphors via, you know, a 10 year old MacBook Air. Having said that, I think it's important to

Jeff Cohen:

point that out, because, you know, most people don't have a game, an amazing gaming PC. So if

Jeff Cohen:

we're going to tout, you know, the metaverse is something where you can get billions of people

Jeff Cohen:

into, clearly we're going to need a lot more gaming PCs. So maybe go buy a video or something

Jeff Cohen:

like that. That's a as a joke, obviously. But you know, the I think that's number one, just saying

Jeff Cohen:

how, you know, the tech isn't necessarily widely dispersed in order to get into this metaverse.

Jeff Cohen:

Also, some of the pictures in the article, you know, for people who are watching this and not,

Jeff Cohen:

you know, listening to this, it's, it's not that impressive. The graphics, you know, decentraland

Jeff Cohen:

graphics just aren't very good. It's not, you know, like HD stuff. It's more like, Bro boxy,

Jeff Cohen:

kind of like block graphics. It also just looks very sparse. Like there's not a ton of people

Jeff Cohen:

it's, you know, sparsely attended. So that is that's, that's kind of a little bit of a black

Jeff Cohen:

mark. I think in general, though, I love this idea. I think we talked about it a couple months

Jeff Cohen:

back when this was first announced. We're both fairly bullish on this. And I like the idea of

Jeff Cohen:

fashion in the virtual world. I think it's one of those things along with gaming that just like they

Jeff Cohen:

will be parts of the metaverse very clearly. So I'm pretty bullish on that. And I'd like

Jeff Cohen:

hopefully, you know, this, this continues, and we see more of these and continues to grow in terms

Jeff Cohen:

of people and interest. I didn't see that many art, you know, besides the fact that we do this

Jeff Cohen:

podcast and literally, you know, Google every week articles in the metaverse, I didn't see this

Jeff Cohen:

Pierce, kind of the more of the consciousness of the the mainstream, like I didn't see on the Today

Jeff Cohen:

Show or on CNBC or, you know, other outlets like talking about this, which I'm a little I would

Jeff Cohen:

have liked to have seen a little more mainstream coverage.

Paul Dawalibi:

Of that that piece is an interesting insight. Interesting thought. I'm

Paul Dawalibi:

maybe not too surprised by that, like it, here's my tinfoil hat theory on that one, you know. It's

Paul Dawalibi:

like this is in some ways a threat to real Fashion Week's right, like New York Fashion Week, or, or

Paul Dawalibi:

Paris Fashion Week, or any, any of the big sort of global in the sense that those are pretty like for

Paul Dawalibi:

anyone who's been to a show, or like a big show, right? For big design, or in any one of those

Paul Dawalibi:

fashion carries. It's a pretty closed world, right? For the most part, they're invited only,

Paul Dawalibi:

you either have to be a tremendous customer of the brand, or from the industry or a buyer, or media

Paul Dawalibi:

from the industry, right? Like it's a very closed off world, just loving fashion and being

Paul Dawalibi:

interested in being interested in fashion. Like, you're never going to be invited to Le sabse you

Paul Dawalibi:

know, runway show in Paris, that's just not gonna happen. And so, I love this accessibility argument

Paul Dawalibi:

and I love sort of being able to bring that Fashion Week experience to potentially millions,

Paul Dawalibi:

billions of other people that would never otherwise get that experience and I think that's

Paul Dawalibi:

special. You know, the author does make a good point that you need a gaming PC Now, having said

Paul Dawalibi:

that, her phone was probably a better a way better piece of hardware to do this than her 10 year old

Paul Dawalibi:

MacBook Air and probably could have rendered these graphics a lot better. But like it's hard not to

Paul Dawalibi:

be a fan right and not to like the fact that what I would consider, like, you know, there's an image

Paul Dawalibi:

here of the LE sub store and decentraland, Elissa, like spent 10s. Fifth, like 50 million plus

Paul Dawalibi:

building a store on Madison Avenue in New York, right? This probably cost a fraction of that. What

Paul Dawalibi:

is the long term value of a presence like this, assuming these platforms really take off in a big

Paul Dawalibi:

way? My guess is the ROI here is probably considerably higher, right? If you look at a five

Paul Dawalibi:

or 10 year, kind of timeline. And so you have to appreciate that. Brands that maybe aren't the most

Paul Dawalibi:

tech savvy in the world to begin with, have taken a pretty big leap here into into the unknown. And,

Paul Dawalibi:

and I think long term it's gonna pay off I do believe, I think what has to be solved. And we

Paul Dawalibi:

started with this, and we'll close with this is how do you get here? Right? Like, what are the on

Paul Dawalibi:

ramps, and how do you make those on ramps? And on one hand accessible, but also high fidelity?

Paul Dawalibi:

Right? Because if you look at her photos, this is not this is not high fidelity, high fashion worthy

Paul Dawalibi:

graphics. Let's put it that way. But I I'm less worried about the technology problems. I think

Paul Dawalibi:

solving the adoption problem is the bigger one. And the fact that most of the brands are here,

Paul Dawalibi:

says something. Jeff, that wraps up this week's podcast.

Jeff Cohen:

Is it goodbye, Action Pack, we got action tag stories in there.

Paul Dawalibi:

Guys, make sure to subscribe to the podcast. Make sure to hit that follow subscribe

Paul Dawalibi:

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Paul Dawalibi:

any of the 50 platforms you can find our podcast on. Also go subscribe to our sister podcast

Paul Dawalibi:

business of esports and met a woman they're equally great. And, and let us know. Send us

Paul Dawalibi:

feedback. Reach out to Jeff reach out to myself. Let us know maybe things you want to hear us talk

Paul Dawalibi:

about. Go follow Jeff on Twitter at Jeff Cohen 23. He's always got interesting takes on on the

Paul Dawalibi:

business of the metaverse and, and yeah, let us know how you're liking the show and anything you

Paul Dawalibi:

want to hear us talk about. Guys. Don't forget the future is fun. And we will see you next week.

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About the Podcast

META Business
From the metaverse to the boardroom...
Meta Business tackles the most important Metaverse industry news. Business experts dissect and discuss all of the hottest topics and happenings, from a unique C-suite perspective.

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Paul Dawalibi